Tue 10 Mar 2009
I hope everyone has been following the long discussion that the most preceding post has developed into, especially if you’re interested in film noir, or even if you’re not. It will be a while longer, I’m sorry to say, before this blog gets back to its normal coverage of books as well as movies, but here’s a question that occurred to me after reading through the previous group of comments again.
In discussing which movies are noir and which are not, both Walker Martin and David Vineyard (primarily, but not exclusively) have brought up a long long list of films to use as examples. Everyone knows which movies are noir and which are not — it’s all the in-betweener’s that cause the problems, no matter what definition you use.
Here’s the problem. Reading through the comments, I’ve been adding movies to my “must see” list left and right, whether they’re noir or not. They all sound worth watching, but how? I’ve read somewhere that only 4% of the movies ever made are commercially available.
And every time a new format comes along, more and more movies are left behind. From VHS to DVD, some movies didn’t make the upgrade. Now it’s DVD to Blue-Ray, and only those deemed most commercially advantageous will make that step up — and those generally seem to be recent movies in which I personally have little interest.
Next, I presume, will be digital downloads, which in terms of commercial releases in cleaned-up editions, will probably bypass even more films not worth the attention of the giant conglomerates. Which leaves it to collectors and the underground market to keep many many old (and even recent) movies available for watching. For me, I’m going to stop with DVDs. No further upgrades for me.
Which makes for a long preamble to my actual question. As Walker and David have pointed out, there are many books on Film Noir which list many films as being noir as well as many others deemed marginal. If you go to Amazon or similar sources, you won’t find them all, but if you were to go to ioffer.com or sell.com, many if not most of them do turn up — but not all.
Here’s my question, directed primarily to Walker and David, but anyone else can jump in. What movies are there — and let’s stick to noir foremost, but why not include any crime movie — might you have been looking for and have not yet found a surviving copy to obtain on DVD as your own?
What are the most wished-for crime films, ones that you’d most like to see, in other words, but so far don’t seem to exist, even as collectors-only copies?
March 10th, 2009 at 1:27 pm
If we were talking about films from the 1920’s or 1930’s then I guess there would be a bigger list of movies that do not seem to exist any longer. There must be a crime film in the 1940’s or 1950’s I’ve had trouble finding but I can’t think of one right now. Ioffer.com, sell.com, ebay, all have led me to find sellers with an amazing number of dvds that have not been commercially released, and as you point out, may never be released in an official format.
For instance, I’ve been busy since 1979 viewing and checking off the movies listed in the FILM NOIR AN ENCYCLOPEDIC REFERENCE book. I’m close to being able to say I’ve tracked them all down. Before vhs and dvd this would not have been possible. There must be some crime movies that are not available; I just can’t think of any major wants.
However if we talk about crime TV series then that’s another matter. Because of live TV and the practice of “wiping tapes”, many early TV shows don’t exist. DR WHO fans know what I’m talking about. Before video tapes in the 1960’s and 1970’s there was no market for TV reruns and many series were destroyed or partially destroyed. At least with movies, there was always a chance of showing the films for a second or third time in theaters many years later. Plus sometimes movie buffs rented or collected the films.
I have some crime TV shows that I’d love to find, especially PHILIP MARLOWE (1959), starring Philip Carey, which lasted for one season and 26 episodes. I’ve been told that this no longer exists except maybe for one episode.
Another series, this time with definite film noir overtones, is the British TV series PUBLIC EYE(1965-1975), starring Alfred Burke as a private eye. I’m not referring to the movie with the same name about the photographer, Weegee. If you have a multi region dvd player you can buy 4 box sets of PUBLIC EYE from amazon.com.uk but the first few years no longer exist since they were “wiped”. The first box set is from the 1969 season and starts off with the private eye being released from a couple years in prison. The TV episodes dealing with how he came to be in prison are missing but it seems he was found in possession of stolen goods.
I highly recommend what remains of this series because it breaks all the rules. Alfred Burke is not the usual handsome, young, devil may care, wisecracking PI, who is a big success with the ladies. He doesn’t solve every crime and wrap it up for delivery to the police. No, instead he is a homely, middle aged failure that is having trouble earning a living. He lives in a cheap flat, is depressed and not a success with girls. In fact the 1969 box set opens with him being released from prison and immediately engaging a prostitute. However thing do not go well and they have falling out at her apartment.
I don’t want to say anything to spoil the ending but if you like something different, try this downbeat, noirish series.
March 10th, 2009 at 1:50 pm
I want a DVD copy of Farewell, My Lovely — The fantastic Robert Mitchum movie of early 1970s. I can only find PAL versions, over in England, and i do not own a player that handles all regions. Guess that needs to be my next purchase since the studio doesn’t seem interested in making this wonderful film available. Can’t even rent it from NetFlix!
March 10th, 2009 at 3:29 pm
Trying to hunt these films down can be a chore. Only this year one of my favorite films — I’ll Never Forget You, showed up on DVD — alas in a $50 set of other Tyrone Power films. Another good Power film Diplomatic Courier (based on Peter Cheyney’s Sinister Errand) was available on VHS but isn’t on DVD. Some of these can be found on the gray market, but not always in great shape, and if you have a DVR some can be recorded from TCM if you are pretty careful about checking their schedule.
Among the crime films on my all time list is City Streets with Sylvia Sidney and Gary Cooper, based on a story by Dashiell Hammett; The Last Warning the third entry in the Crime Club Bill Crane series with Preston Foster as Jonathan Latimer’s hardboiled screwball sleuth Bill Crane (based on The Dead Don’t Care); Sleeper’s East based on Fred Nebel’s novel and again with Preston Foster (the remake Sleeper’s West one of the Michael Shayne seres is available as part of the Michael Shayne Private Detective Set); Salty O’Rourke, a Damon Runyonesque dramadey with Alan Ladd as a race track tout who gets involved with school teacher Gail Russell; The Man at Large a B programmer with George Reeves as a Nazi p.o.w. who escapes in the states and goes underground among the fifth column — played along the lines of The 39 Steps; The Saint’s Girl Friday with Louis Hayward recreating the role he first played in The Saint in New York; State Secret a terrific spy film with Doug Fairbanks Jr and Glynnis Johns from Sidney Gilliatt and Frank Launder and based on Roy Huggins story “Appointment with Fear” (which is also the basis of The Good Humor Man and the pilot for 77 Sunset Strip — and probably a Maverick episode too knowing Huggins); Brighton Rock based on the Graham Greene novel with Richard Attenborgh as the pyschotic Pinky.
Some of these I’ve seen, but don’t have and some I’ve never seen. I saw Un Roi Sans Divertisement in the late sixties in Paris, it’s based on Jean Giono’s novel (Horseman on the Roof, The Man Who Loved Trees …) a period noir about a gendarme sent to a small French village to investigate attacks by a pack of wolves who discovers a serial killer at work. I’ve never been able to find it on VHS or DVD in Pal or otherwise.
I won’t even get into some of the silent films I’d like to see, but there are plenty of talkies that are either lost or just unlikely to show up. Though I can’t recall their names off hand there is a thirties Race Williams film (I think with Ralph Graves) and a forties Dan Turner film (not the Marc Singer film).
The Detecive with Alec Guinees as Father Brown is hard to find too. Inspector Maigret with Jean Gabin is another long unavailable — or the episodes of the Rupert Davies Brit Maigret series (the Michael Gambon ones are easy enough to find though).
I’ve been looking fof Guilty Bystander for years with Zachary Scott as Wade Miller’s Max Thursday (and a genuine noir too). I have a VHS recording of Jamaica Run based on Max Murray’s A Neat Little Corpse, but it’s never been on VHS or DVD. Triple Deception is a good crime film about smuggling based on a Sterling Noel novel (Noel wrote I Killed Stalin a minor best seller)which showed up once on TCM but not for years.
So Dark the Night is a true noir from Joseph Lewis (The Big Combo, also known as Wagon Wheel Lewis for his westerns) features Stefan Geray as a sleuth based avery loosely on famed real life sleuth Dr. Edmund Locard. To add to it’s noir credentials it has a screenplay by Peter Ruric who hard boiled fans know better as Black Mask’s Paul Cain, author of Fast One. Which leads to the next film on my list, Gambling Ship (not to be confused with the Wayne Morris Warner’s B of the same name) with Cary Grant and based on Fast One by Cain with Grant in the roll of Kells. It’s not much like the novel by all accounts but I’d still like to see it.
Basil Deardon’s The Green Man is a droll little black comedy with Alistar Sim (Green for Danger, The Belles of St. Trinians …) as a timid clockmaker who side lines as an assassin, and Ronald Neame’s Tske My Life a suspenser based on Winston Graham’s novel (Marnie, The Walking Stick …) about an opera diva trying to clear her husand of a murder — David Lean was the film editor. Another Graham novel to film is the film Night Without Stars with David Farrar as a night blind (nyctlopia) lawyer drawn into a murder. Farrar also starred in A Small Back Room based on Nigel Balchin’s novel about a crippled munitions expert defusing a tricky German bomb.
Farrar played Sexton Blake in two films that are available on the gray market and Hammer made a Sexton Blake film With Geoffrey Toone called Murder Site 3 I’d love to see. There are also two films with Brit actor John Bentley I would love to find, Hammer the Toff based on John Creasey’s character and Calling Paul Temple about the long running novel,radio, and televison sleuth and his wife Steve (Stephanie). Both are Brit B’s directed by Maclean Rogers.
I will say though that DVD has been better than VHS about both hard to find films and television series. Just this last year the Darren McGavin Mike Hammer, Checkmate, Burke’s Law, Honey West, The Champions, The Baron, Craig Kennedy, and others have shown up on DVD sets. There is one episode of the Phil Carey Philip Marlowe available on one of those multi episode compilation tapes, as well as at least two of the early Ellery Queen series (one Lee Bowman and one George Nader), the pilot for Bullodg Drummond with Robert Beatty, and at least one Colonel March episode with Boris Karloff (and a very good one too). I even have the pilot fim for William Campbell Gault’s Brock Callahan that showed up once on A&E unannoucned. Hopefully more of these exist. Though we tend to despair, this stuff is always showing up. Most of the early Tom Mix films were lost until Sammy Davis Jr. found them in John Wayne’s garage, and the Lone Ranger serial was found in a theater in Spain that was being torn down. Maybe even London After Midnight will show up some day (unlikely). Until then we can dream can’t we?
March 10th, 2009 at 3:54 pm
David, a possible source that may have all the films you need is Samspadefilms. He has over 8400 movies, mostly old ones. I’ve bought alot from him at $5.00 each if I buy 30 or more. Go to google and type in “samspadefilms movie list”. You should get a hit of his website. I believe Steve might have tried him on my urging also. Just pick out the films you want and email him for a quote.
March 10th, 2009 at 9:11 pm
As Walker says, the stock that “Sam Spade” has is staggering. As soon as I stop squandering my money on mere books, I plan to stock up on tons of what he has for sale.
I’ve not tried searching for any of David’s long want list, but I’m sure many of them are available on Ioffer and sell.com. I’ve just added all of them to my own want list.
To address Frank specifically, FAREWELL MY LOVELY (the Mitchum version) is (was) out on VHS, as I have a copy. I see that third party sellers are offering it fairly cheaply on Amazon, but again on tape.
All-region DVD copies of the movie are also offered on Amazon, but in the $60 range. Yipes. Why is that?
I didn’t mean to open the discussion up to TV shows, but on the other hand, why not? Tons of good things to look out for there, including lots of British TV that I never knew existed much less that I wanted them.
Sometimes, you get lucky and a commercial outfit puts out a complete set of the M SQUAD series, where previously you could only get copies from collectors.
But where did the commercial outfit get some of the shows in their complete set? From collectors.
March 11th, 2009 at 8:05 am
Steve, I think it’s 4-5 % films of all those that have ever been made have survived, which means not all of them are available in any sense, i.e. their copies are in the film archives (for example, THE SMUT PEDDLER, a sixties’ sleaze flick, survives only as one copy in the Finnish Film Archive’s holdings and likely will never be available in any format).
March 11th, 2009 at 10:33 am
A couple of films that I would like to get my hands on are 23 PACES TO BAKER STREET which starred Van Johnson and was based on the Philip MacDonald novel WARRANT FOR X though it dropped his fictional sleuth Anthony Gethryn and the British film SAPPHIRE which used a murder mystery to make comments about racism several years before IN THE HEAT OF THE NIGHT did in the U. S. I also wouldn’t mind seeing boxed sets issued of various series films like The Saint, The Falcon, the Lone Wolf, Boston Blackie etc. Also I would really like to see the Jim Hutton ELLERY QUEEN series on dvd.
March 11th, 2009 at 7:16 pm
I checked Sam Spade films. Wow. When I have the money I know where it is going.
Re Ray’s enquiry about 23 Paces to Baker Street I’m not sure it has ever been on VHS or DVD. My copy is recorded from television. If you get TCM it shows up there once in a while. Great little film. As Ray says Anthony Gethryn isn’t in this version which concentrates on blind American Van Johnson who overhears a plot to kidnap a little girl and enlists girlfriend Vera Miles and butler Cecil Parker, when the police ignore him, to find the criminals before the crime can be committed .
In the novel the hero isn’t blind, but blind drunk when he overhears the plot and turns to Anthony Gethryn for help. In the 30’s Brit film, The Nursemaid Who Disappeared, Austin Trevor plays Gethryn (he had also played Poirot in another and Dorothy Sayer’s Inspector Parker in a very odd Lord Peter movie where Lord Peter ends up a secondary character with John Loder taking the lead). 23 Paces to Baker Street is an entertaining suspense film that makes good use of London locales and weather.
Sapphire is another that shows up once in a while on TCM. Good film that takes on the race issue fairly clearly for the time.
The Saint is available in a boxed set from A&E (it may only be in the PAL format but even a boxed set of the Return of the Saint is available). The megaset is pretty pricey, but there are lesser sets of specific years that aren’t quite so high, and once in a while they go on sale. All the Falcon films (save the ones with John Calvert), all the Saint films (save The Saint’s Girl Friday), and all the Lone Wolf films have played on TCM at various times, though as far as I know there are no boxed sets. The first four Lloyd Nolan Michael Shayne set is available and includes extras on paperback cover artist Bob McGinnis and on Shayne’s history. The complete Mr. Moto with the rare Return of Mr. Moto (but not Stopover Tokyo) is available in two boxed sets. The Crime Doctor, Boston Blackie, Torchy Blaine, and Whistler films have all shown on TCM. There are also boxed sets of the Nancy Drew films, the Inner Sanctum series, and the Mr. Wong pictures as well as the complete Warner Oland and Sidney Toler Charlie Chan films, and though no boxed sets most of the Bulldog Drummond series is available in the under $6 range. Of course the complete Thin Man is available as well as the non Thin Man Powell and Loy films. The Rathbone and Bruce Sherlock Holmes series are available finally in one set. The only Fu Manchu set I know of other than the forgetable television series are the to stinkers Jesus Franco did at the tail end (and I do mean tail) or the Harry Alan Towers series, Blood of Fu Manchu and Castle of Fu Manchu. Of the other Towers entries only Bride of Fu Manchu is available on a double. I think Mask of Fu Manchu with Karloff is available on DVD and I know the Republic serial Drums of Fu Manchu is available. The Warner Oland Fu Manchu films were available on the gray market as VHS but I don’t know about DVD.
The Kennel Murder Case with William Powell as Philo Vance has long been available as it is in the public domain, but though some of the others like The Bishop, Dragon, Garden, and Casino Murder Case(s)show up on TCM I don’t think they are available on DVD unless in the gray market. Rarities like the Barrymore Arsene Lupin, the Melvyn Douglas Lone Wolf Returns, the Colman and Niven Raffles entries, and some of the non Rathbone Holmes films show up from time to time.
As Juri says, a great many films are lost forever, or only available in pretty bad shape. Film restoration has done a great job, but it is an expensive and time intensive job and many films just don’t engender enough interest to make it worth while. But then things show up too so it isn’t hopeless, and if you don’t mind lesser quality and no extras many films that we want to see are available on the gray market. You may have to turn detective to track some of them down though.
May 22nd, 2009 at 10:19 am
Most of the movies discussed here are freely available on European p2p sites most are very old and in some countries they are classed as PD movies,infact I’ve just watched the 1950 one Guilty Bystander,as they say seek and ye shall find.Some sellers do that they download then burn to discs,I actually bought the tv series The Untouchables from one of them,not the best but watchable.